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	<title>Comments on: Who&#8217;s the Boss?</title>
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		<title>By: Who&#8217;s the Boss [Revised]&#160;&#124;&#160;matthewdgreen.com</title>
		<link>http://matthewdgreen.com/2009/04/whos-the-boss/comment-page-1/#comment-502</link>
		<dc:creator>Who&#8217;s the Boss [Revised]&#160;&#124;&#160;matthewdgreen.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://matthewdgreen.com/?p=662#comment-502</guid>
		<description>[...] I overreacted in my post several months ago on leadership. Some readers a bit more discerning than myself pointed this out [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I overreacted in my post several months ago on leadership. Some readers a bit more discerning than myself pointed this out [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eugene</title>
		<link>http://matthewdgreen.com/2009/04/whos-the-boss/comment-page-1/#comment-453</link>
		<dc:creator>Eugene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:24:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://matthewdgreen.com/?p=662#comment-453</guid>
		<description>Heb 13:17  Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.  NKJV

2 Thess 3:14- And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. 
15 Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. NKJV

Col 3:22- Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 
23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, NKJV

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for &quot;God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.&quot;   NKJV

1 Cor 16:15 I urge you, brethren — you know the household of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves to the ministry of the saints —  
16 that you also submit to such, and to everyone who works and labors with us.  NKJV

1 Thess 5:14  Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all.  NKJV

Titus 2:15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.  NKJV

1 Tim 5:17-Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 
18 For the Scripture says, &quot;You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,&quot; and,&quot;The laborer is worthy of his wages.&quot;   
19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. 
20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.  NKJV

There are many more such verses in Pauline theology that clearly teach that it wasn&#039;t just a group of guys getting together and leading by committing and subjectively listening to the voice of God.  They clearly had a model of leadership that came from the Old Testament line of Elders and spiritually leaders in the Jewish community.  Sent ones, prophets, teachers and pastors.    

The point seems to me that God has appointed leaders in the church to rule and lead God&#039;s people into truth and to a fruitful and vibrant Christian life. God designed it that way.  Leaders were to lead into truth, teach apostles doctrine and live life’s that were worth following.  Obliviously in the case of Todd Bentley he has failed on all those accounts. Which would seem to disqualify him from public ministry at least during this period of his life.  If and when he could be restored and I believe that there is that possibility for him as there would be for anyone that sinned and fail short of God’s perfect mark.  He will live the consequences of his poor choices and will never again experience the public support or trust of others as long as he lives.  God forgives, but people don’t  forget.  Are there pastors who abuse there authority. Yes! Are there followers of Christ who subvert and refuse to submit and obey Godly leadership in a local church.  YES! The problem seems to be the break down in trust and truth.  People don’t seem to trust become they tend to not believe there leaders are telling them the truth.  .  

The problem with guys like Todd Bentley and Rich Joyner is that they have no accountability.  They have no governing body and as Larry Stockstill says that in today’s world that accountability is only as good as the paper and ink that it is written on i.e. constitutions and bylaws.  Most of these movements have no legal or written accountability and therefore can and do whatever they please.  

The scriptures are clear and the examples are numerous in the early church that the churches diffentely looked to the apostles for leadership and direction.  It seems that most of Paul’s writings had to do with correcting some aberration concerning Christ or Paul&#039;s  authority. The Corinth church seems to almost mock Paul and his role of spiritual authority in there lives.   

There are many abused parishioners I am sure and it is sad to see men/ women who have been touched by God for spiritual leadership abuse there power and influence. They according to James will be judged with a much stricter judgment.  It has made me think many times about what my end will be on that day.  But false prophets and those who lead others for profit are not the majority in my experience.  Most leaders are people of integrity,  self sacrificing and dedicated mortal men and women.   

On the other side of the coin and from my perspective I see many abused leaders.  Parishioners  expectations are unrealistic and expect some measure of perfection from others that they cannot and do not expect from themselves.  Quick to excuse there own weakness, but quicker to judge the weakness of those who lead.  
Judgmental, harsh and speak against spiritual leaders with partial truths or misrepresentations of the facts.  I have watched people violate Christ commands to confront issues and Paul’s teaching about making accusations agaisnt those who lead in the church over and over.  Trust me it is never to the benefit of those people.  

As a Christian leader I take great hope in the scriptures that &quot;He is my shield and great reward&quot;.  He must be my defender and protector but many good and godly leaders have been worn out and left there positions in under frustration and disillusionment of the people that they loved and served to the best of their abilities.  

Standards should be kept high for those who enter into God&#039;s holy calling of leading his people.  Guys like Todd B. have come and gone throughout the history of the church and they will soon be another statistic in a long line of &quot;What could have been&quot; in this thing we call the church.

How far have we come from the days of the apostles who were ablt to find 7 good men who were full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, who were able to minister in great power the word with signs following and were willing to submit to the leadership and authority of the apostles by waiting on tables, widows and manage the monies that were giving by Gods people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heb 13:17  Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.  NKJV</p>
<p>2 Thess 3:14- And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed.<br />
15 Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. NKJV</p>
<p>Col 3:22- Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God.<br />
23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, NKJV</p>
<p>1 Peter 5:5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for &#8220;God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.&#8221;   NKJV</p>
<p>1 Cor 16:15 I urge you, brethren — you know the household of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves to the ministry of the saints —<br />
16 that you also submit to such, and to everyone who works and labors with us.  NKJV</p>
<p>1 Thess 5:14  Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all.  NKJV</p>
<p>Titus 2:15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.  NKJV</p>
<p>1 Tim 5:17-Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.<br />
18 For the Scripture says, &#8220;You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,&#8221; and,&#8221;The laborer is worthy of his wages.&#8221;<br />
19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.<br />
20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.  NKJV</p>
<p>There are many more such verses in Pauline theology that clearly teach that it wasn&#8217;t just a group of guys getting together and leading by committing and subjectively listening to the voice of God.  They clearly had a model of leadership that came from the Old Testament line of Elders and spiritually leaders in the Jewish community.  Sent ones, prophets, teachers and pastors.    </p>
<p>The point seems to me that God has appointed leaders in the church to rule and lead God&#8217;s people into truth and to a fruitful and vibrant Christian life. God designed it that way.  Leaders were to lead into truth, teach apostles doctrine and live life’s that were worth following.  Obliviously in the case of Todd Bentley he has failed on all those accounts. Which would seem to disqualify him from public ministry at least during this period of his life.  If and when he could be restored and I believe that there is that possibility for him as there would be for anyone that sinned and fail short of God’s perfect mark.  He will live the consequences of his poor choices and will never again experience the public support or trust of others as long as he lives.  God forgives, but people don’t  forget.  Are there pastors who abuse there authority. Yes! Are there followers of Christ who subvert and refuse to submit and obey Godly leadership in a local church.  YES! The problem seems to be the break down in trust and truth.  People don’t seem to trust become they tend to not believe there leaders are telling them the truth.  .  </p>
<p>The problem with guys like Todd Bentley and Rich Joyner is that they have no accountability.  They have no governing body and as Larry Stockstill says that in today’s world that accountability is only as good as the paper and ink that it is written on i.e. constitutions and bylaws.  Most of these movements have no legal or written accountability and therefore can and do whatever they please.  </p>
<p>The scriptures are clear and the examples are numerous in the early church that the churches diffentely looked to the apostles for leadership and direction.  It seems that most of Paul’s writings had to do with correcting some aberration concerning Christ or Paul&#8217;s  authority. The Corinth church seems to almost mock Paul and his role of spiritual authority in there lives.   </p>
<p>There are many abused parishioners I am sure and it is sad to see men/ women who have been touched by God for spiritual leadership abuse there power and influence. They according to James will be judged with a much stricter judgment.  It has made me think many times about what my end will be on that day.  But false prophets and those who lead others for profit are not the majority in my experience.  Most leaders are people of integrity,  self sacrificing and dedicated mortal men and women.   </p>
<p>On the other side of the coin and from my perspective I see many abused leaders.  Parishioners  expectations are unrealistic and expect some measure of perfection from others that they cannot and do not expect from themselves.  Quick to excuse there own weakness, but quicker to judge the weakness of those who lead.<br />
Judgmental, harsh and speak against spiritual leaders with partial truths or misrepresentations of the facts.  I have watched people violate Christ commands to confront issues and Paul’s teaching about making accusations agaisnt those who lead in the church over and over.  Trust me it is never to the benefit of those people.  </p>
<p>As a Christian leader I take great hope in the scriptures that &#8220;He is my shield and great reward&#8221;.  He must be my defender and protector but many good and godly leaders have been worn out and left there positions in under frustration and disillusionment of the people that they loved and served to the best of their abilities.  </p>
<p>Standards should be kept high for those who enter into God&#8217;s holy calling of leading his people.  Guys like Todd B. have come and gone throughout the history of the church and they will soon be another statistic in a long line of &#8220;What could have been&#8221; in this thing we call the church.</p>
<p>How far have we come from the days of the apostles who were ablt to find 7 good men who were full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, who were able to minister in great power the word with signs following and were willing to submit to the leadership and authority of the apostles by waiting on tables, widows and manage the monies that were giving by Gods people.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Campisi</title>
		<link>http://matthewdgreen.com/2009/04/whos-the-boss/comment-page-1/#comment-450</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Campisi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://matthewdgreen.com/?p=662#comment-450</guid>
		<description>Great points Matt. The model Jesus presents regarding servant leadership (washing each other&#039;s feet) is in stark contrast to some of the model&#039;s presented by some of today&#039;s ministries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great points Matt. The model Jesus presents regarding servant leadership (washing each other&#8217;s feet) is in stark contrast to some of the model&#8217;s presented by some of today&#8217;s ministries.</p>
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